Why marketing is critical to enrolling the class
In this episode:
You’ll hear from Mary Beth Marks who is the Executive Director of Enrollment Marketing at University of the Pacific, a private university in Northern California.
You'll hear her discuss:
The importance of marketing to enrollment
How they're using paid TikTok ads to build brand awareness
What she thinks about using mail and email to meet enrollment goals
[00:00:00] Host: You're listening to filling seats, the state of enrollment, marketing, and higher ed. Hosted by StudentBridge. In this podcast. You'll learn, what's working to grow shape and sustain enrollment. At colleges and universities directly for marketers thought leaders and ed tech innovators, because anyone can design a brochure, but not anyone can fill seats.
[00:00:27] Welcome to episode 30, one of filling seats. In this episode, you'll hear from Mary Beth marks, who is the executive director of enrollment marketing at university of the Pacific, a private university in Northern California.
[00:00:43] You'll hear her discuss the importance of marketing to enrollment, how they're using paid tick talk ads to build brand awareness and what she thinks about using mail and email to meet enrollment goals. Let's meet Mary Beth.
[00:00:59] Mary Beth Marks: I was an English teacher before I started in higher ed. I went to Charleston State. That's where also where I graduated. with my undergrad and master's degree, started in transfer services.
[00:01:11] Mary Beth Marks: I then went out to West Texas to Silver Ross. I was a director of admissions and recruiting there. AVP and then vp, then I went to U N O, and now I'm here at the University of Pacific. And, I'm still in a pretty strategic role. I'm not a vp, but I am the executive director for enrollment marketing, which means I just focus on things that influence enrollment, all the way through.
[00:01:37] Mary Beth Marks: The pipeline. My boss likes to call it the pipeline. I'm try to remember to call it the pipeline and not the funnel. but really right now it looks like, in my opinion, it looks the pipeline that doesn't even exist. The funnel's not really a thing either. It could be like, oh, I like the wine glass or the margarita, depending on what you prefer to drink.
[00:01:56] Mary Beth Marks: Analogy, cuz you get a lot at the top and then it gets narrow and then sometimes you get a lot at the bottom or you might. even less, in which case it, it would be a funnel. So it just depends. Right now, my position does things like look at data, and analyze where we can maybe pivot or do something different in our communications to influence outcomes, either by segmented audiences through multi-channel,video mailers. TikTok social media, YouTube, and how that will influence then the student outcomes that we're looking for. So if we want a certain group to yield and we want a certain area to yield, then we look at , those statistics and that data, and then determine how we can best implement a campaign that will help get those results.
[00:02:45] Host: tell me a little bit more about University of the Pacific.
[00:02:48] Mary Beth Marks: it's a four year, but we do have professional programs as well graduate, and doctoral degrees. Along with pharmacy, dental school and, law school, which are also big programs for us. Very New England vibe here in Northern California. So we've got your traditional brick buildings with the climbing ivy and the rose gardens and all.
[00:03:09] Mary Beth Marks: But then we also have some very, Sleek city-like buildings in San Francisco for our, dental clinic. And we have a location in Sacramento too that is also,a quasi traditional and modern looking setting. We do have a smaller student population here than, , like the university that I was at before.
[00:03:27] Mary Beth Marks: But I think that's a little bit intentional on this university's part, in terms of providing more of that smaller classroom experience that we all like to talk about, and want to deliver. So I would say it's like in a great place. Location wise, an hour and a half or so to San Francisco.
[00:03:44] Mary Beth Marks: I can get to Tahoe in about the same amount of time. , so you're able to go everywhere if you're like really into the outdoor stuff like I am, which was really one of the big selling points for me my boss who recruited me from U N O said, Mary Beth, you could ski and surf in the same day or the same weekend if you really wanted to.
[00:04:03] Mary Beth Marks: And I was like, oh really? Well, let me check it out.
[00:04:05] Host: Where do you draw your students from? Are they regional to Northern California, , or are they from all over?
[00:04:12] Mary Beth Marks: we have a pretty strong presence in our regional area, so right here in our own backyard as well as , greater Sacramento area, but we are expanding our markets into the bay. San Jose and the. San Francisco area, as well as down in la and we are, we do have a presence in Oregon, and Washington State.
[00:04:31] Mary Beth Marks: And we are back in Hawaii too. So we've got the West Coast pretty well covered, but we also get students from, some of our tertiary markets like Texas, Illinois. and up the northeast too. I think they're all looking for that warmer weather and all. Some of 'em I can definitely see having lived in upstate New York, I can definitely see why you'd be attracted to a place where it's supposed to be sunny 300 days of the year.
[00:04:53] Mary Beth Marks: Not always.
[00:04:54] Host: let's talk enrollment goals. So are y'all in growth mode or are you trying to shape your class, or are you trying to maintain a certain type of, class coming in?
[00:05:05] Mary Beth Marks: We're in all of those. So we want to grow, like many of us do. and we want to shape our class as well. So there's things that we're looking at to, to get,people from this area, people that have these characteristics or that, those types of things. so we're looking at all of those in terms of reaching enrollment goals.
[00:05:23] Host: what's the size of the freshman classes that you're bringing in?
[00:05:28] Mary Beth Marks: we're, just under a thousand. So depending on, I've only been here a year, so last year we were a little, shy of our goal. This year we are continuing with the same goals that we've had. Not previous goals, but still going even bigger. and that will put us just under a thousand new freshmen with.
[00:05:44] Mary Beth Marks: increasing enrollment goals throughout the year. So it's like a sustainable growth, not one where you're, you grow too fast and then you don't have the capacity or the capability to serve those students that you brought in.
[00:05:56] Host: Tell me a little bit more about your role and your team.
[00:06:00] Mary Beth Marks: I report directly to the vice president of enrollment, so, a little bit of a switch cuz I was the vice president of enrollment. So sometimes we do disagree on things and I'll say, that's not how I would've done it. But you're the boss now. So that's why I'm in this role. I make suggestions.
[00:06:16] Mary Beth Marks: He makes decisions. that's what I like to say. and then I have a team, I have about, I think five direct reports. I have a project manager, I have a engagement director, a content direct. . and then I have people that work on just social media strategies, people that work on SEO and website strategy.
[00:06:34] Mary Beth Marks: I have content writers. and then I have a videographer. So I have my own little team built in within enrollment management, to support not just our like overall enrollment goals, but we support everybody's, marketing for enrollment across the university.
[00:06:50] Host: Going from overseeing all of enrollment to now nicheing down to, overseeing enrollment marketing and enrollment communications, would you say that this is The area that you are more drawn to, that you feel more passionate about,
[00:07:06] Mary Beth Marks: It is the
[00:07:07] Mary Beth Marks: area that I feel more drawn to, and in fact, it's the area that I believe is. More likely to influence enrollment than any other area in the entire. enrollment division with the exception of financial aid. But even that can't influence enrollment if nobody is marketing and getting the word out to students in a way that's comprehensible, and easy to understand.
[00:07:31] Mary Beth Marks: So I think in my position is very unique that I understand marketing. I'm by no means like a marketing guru or a, somebody who's like way knows all the ins and out and the nuances of marketing. but I do understand how marketing works for student. And I know how to work an enrollment pipeline so that you end up with the goals that you need to get to at the end of the day.
[00:07:53] Mary Beth Marks: And that's, I think what makes me a very valuable team player to this team is that I can bring both to the table. having had every. Single area of enrollment under me at some point in my career, including at one point residential living. I have this like good working knowledge of everything that goes on, and so I'm able to give my vp, ideas or strategies that I would've used in areas that he might not be as first as I am.
[00:08:22] Host: What is something that your team is doing differently?
[00:08:25] Mary Beth Marks: we start communicating with parents at the prospective student stage. If we can collect their data, we will contact them and try to get them involved in that search process.
[00:08:36] Mary Beth Marks: Fairly early on, when you get the parent on board, it's a much easier sell, than the student. parents are a little bit more practical than students who tend to lead with emotions,
[00:08:46] Mary Beth Marks: and they can definitely steer the conversation in your favor if you have cultivated that relat. With them. the other thing that I. very proud of my team for doing is our foray into, TikTok in terms of building brand awareness. So I don't think that there's a whole lot of schools out there yet, and it's still a new playground for everybody.
[00:09:07] Mary Beth Marks: outcomes are yet to be seen on whether or not it actually works. But in terms of views, I think they've done a great job, making the videos, editing the videos and then producing them and putting them. in that platform and marketing to our, areas that we want to target,
[00:09:22] Host: So
[00:09:22] Host: you're using TikTok as a. Prospecting initiative how are you converting or attempting to convert those students into inquiries or
[00:09:33] Host: applicants?
[00:09:34] Mary Beth Marks: we've built out, a specific landing page for those ads so we could. , track them through Google Analytics, see where they're coming from, see what the bounce rate is, how long are they staying? Are they clicking and taking action? And we've seen that happen. So we've seen them actually go to the page.
[00:09:50] Mary Beth Marks: They don't bounce, they do the request more info or learn more button. and then on the backside in our c R crm, then we then can track where these leads came from. So it might not be a first source, but certain. more awareness. never hurts anything. And one thing I think. , the digital presence is more, valuable than sending an admissions counselor out to a big fair to recruit or to a high school, like during the lunch visit type thing where your audience is just passing back and forth and they really just wanna break and they might not wanna talk to you cuz they're too nervous or they're busy talking to their friends or whatever.
[00:10:25] Mary Beth Marks: So having that digital presence where they are at is very important, and a valuable.
[00:10:31] Host: so more paid TikTok than
[00:10:33] Host: organic
[00:10:34] Mary Beth Marks: we do paid, we have an organic, channel as well, but our paid is what seems to be paying paid is paying off for us right now.
[00:10:42] Host: And what's like the content of those videos? Is it like people talking? Is it showing the campus?
[00:10:48] Mary Beth Marks: We've done one that was like a day in the life of a student. So we tried to, they tried to capitalize on the themes that are very popular within TikTok. So they showed campus, they showed a group of friends driving around our city, picking up food from our food trucks and all that we have, and then meeting in an area to eat and socialize.
[00:11:06] Mary Beth Marks: Yeah, so it was like a fun thing. . The other one that we did was like the get Ready with me type theme that, I think we're all familiar with,
[00:11:14] Mary Beth Marks: , I think that one did really well too, because it showed different students, from different backgrounds how they got together. But their commonality , was that they were. . and they all ended up, saying the same thing, about Pacific, like getting out of their rooms, meeting different people, learning different things that, and they really enjoyed that experience.
[00:11:33] Host: what marketing channels would you say that y'all rely on most? let's say that you had to pick a top three, where would TikTok fall within that, and then what would the other two be?
[00:11:44] Mary Beth Marks: Right now, because I don't really know, I don't have the data on TikTok to say, yeah, this actually worked. I only have like views and things. TikTok actually would not make my top three. digital for sure is one of those. the second one would be like a parent communications piece, whether that's a platform or a combination of a platform and digital products, which I think are digital ads.
[00:12:07] Mary Beth Marks: I think that works really well too, so you're not only sending them the written communications, but again, We're as parents, and I think there are parents that are my age now with college kids. , I'm on my phone too. I look on my phone too. So that's an effective way to get in front of that audience.
[00:12:23] Mary Beth Marks: and then the last one, . It would be, some type of social, not just TikTok, but social media , as a tactic, cuz I don't think you can't rely on just one channel to get your message to where your audience is at.
[00:12:35] Mary Beth Marks: It has to be a multi-channel social media approach. , but also within that, knowing what audience you have on what channels. So if you're going for more parents or that age, I think Facebook and Instagram are a good place to be if you're looking for that younger. TikTok is a good place, but we've also heard that moms like TikTok a lot too, so there's another demographic that maybe we can explore later on down the road.
[00:13:02] Host: Historically, I would say over the past, 10 years or so, the channels that have pretty. Reigned Supreme in enrollment marketing would be arguably text, email, and traditional mail, and that did not rank within your top three. So how are you utilizing those channels?
[00:13:24] Mary Beth Marks: I still believe in direct mail. It's a little bit harder to, for me to track the ROI on that, even if we include a QR code and the Google Analytics tag to that page so we can track it. There's just so many ways that a student can absorb that information and take that action that it's hard to say.
[00:13:42] Mary Beth Marks: the mail piece did the job right. But I'd also never wanna go to the table and say, I didn't send out an invite to our open house because, I just don't think that it was worth it. Cuz I don't, I don't have the data to back that up really. And I'm still a firm believer in that piece of mail that you get because if it's a postcard, a student might not see it, but their person who they're living with, parents.
[00:14:05] Mary Beth Marks: Would see it or somebody's gonna see it at some point and be like, oh, nice. Okay, maybe this is something we can look at. I still put stuff on my refrigerator. I still use a postcard to pick out a dentist and those types of things. So while it may not work for the younger generations that we're recruiting now, I still think there's some value to it.
[00:14:24] Mary Beth Marks: would you say it's fair that in the college search process when you're a student and you're considering, 20 schools at the beginning of your senior year, and you get postcards from 18 of them, and then you don't get postcards from two. do you think that that's part of the reason that everyone still sends mail is because they don't wanna be in that number?
[00:14:45] Host: not on the kitchen table.
[00:14:47] Mary Beth Marks: For sure. But I think too, what we try to think about and what I challenge my team to think about is how does this look different than pieces that they're getting from other schools. you could get the same postcard that looks like every other school.
[00:15:02] Mary Beth Marks: Just the mascot and the colors are different.
[00:15:04] Host: and it says, you're more than a number, or You belong here, you matter. Here, ,
[00:15:09] Mary Beth Marks: Yes. Yeah. So we try to have a unique approach to that and really tell, specific story. So we make it more of a storytelling piece rather than this copy paste type piece , that you might get in the mail from other.
[00:15:23] Mary Beth Marks: email is so tricky. I remember when I started, that was the big thing. If you had the CRM and you could send them an email, you were like, golden. And now everybody sends an email. And I even know from my own, experience with an inbox, if there's too much in there, I just go through and delete all of it.
[00:15:38] Mary Beth Marks: Or I pretend like it doesn't exist for a few months. Cuz we all have that one junk email that we use to get all of our promotions or whatever. Mine's like Yahoo. I've had it since I was 20, , I don't even know. At some point it might have a thousand emails in there and I won't read a single one.
[00:15:53] Mary Beth Marks: I'll just delete them all. And I think that's what becomes very d. , with the email factor. Now in marketing to students, it has to be more than just words. They are looking for that storytelling aspect or , that video or picture or, gif something a little bit more interactive than just here's the top three reasons why you should apply, click here to apply. . , that's not even interesting to me. . I can tell you from like when I shop somewhere and they send me like, we'd like your opinion.
[00:16:22] Mary Beth Marks: What's in it for me? Are you gonna gimme a coupon or are you gonna gimme 10? If you're not giving me any of that, then you probably don't want my opinion, because if I end up doing it, it was because I had a bad experience. I think email still is a valid channel, especially for your very highly engaged students.
[00:16:38] Mary Beth Marks: and you can't dismiss it. The challenge is making sure that the content that you're putting in there calls for an action and is what the student wants to digest. like a email invite to a webinar that I received from you.
[00:16:51] Mary Beth Marks: Storytelling or storytelling. There's a difference, that's the same thing with email right now too.
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[00:18:30] Host: Learn email@example.com.
[00:18:34] Host: . where do you place the importance of visits within your overall strategy?
[00:18:39] Mary Beth Marks: . I'm working with our director of campus. Currently to think about different ways that we can present our campus to our students and their families when they come here to check it out. I'm not a fan of the PowerPoint type thing. that falls into storytelling too.
[00:18:53] Mary Beth Marks: If you have a good website, that should tell them everything that they need to know, and that's where they're gonna look anyways. So I would rather be more engaging with some interactive, things. So we're working on some tours that would have a 360 experience, through what we call the cube space in the library that would immerse students and their parents in there.
[00:19:14] Mary Beth Marks: I'd like to see us do a panel with some of our current students so they know, they can get. Feeling of what it's like to be a student here. And then I'd like our tours to get, more in depth and tuned into the student , if they have the option to ask for things. It takes a lot of coordinating and all, and that's not something that you can do immediately.
[00:19:33] Mary Beth Marks: That would be a few years build out, but I think that's the direction that I would like us to take. I also have my team working on a VR experience, , with the goggles or without,
[00:19:43] Mary Beth Marks: but if you don't have access to those, then there'd be another way. I do think that VR goggles will be more prevalent in households , within the next, five years or so, I don't wanna be the school that's behind everybody else in terms of new ways to access a campus tour. So we wanna be first in that space or close to first in that space if we can.
[00:20:03] Host: What is a technology that's making an impact for your school?
[00:20:06] Mary Beth Marks: I definitely would have to say A C R M, which makes an impact for everybody's school, but I can imagine what it would be like without one. and what it's like with one, and I can't imagine because that's how long I've been in there, where there wasn't a C R M. and then we got one, like a very basic one and how they've evolved over the years.
[00:20:26] Mary Beth Marks: I think that's a very impactful tool that everyone, if they wanna be successful, needs to have. But you can't just have it, you have to have good data in there too. So part of that is also being a good data steward and knowing here's how I want the data that I pull out, I want it to look, you have to monitor that data constantly to make sure it's clean and it's correct.
[00:20:47] Mary Beth Marks: and then you have to think about the ways that you. That data to come out and present itself to you and how you can use that to your advantage to literally plan everything else, that you're doing. the other tool, that I'm really looking forward to diving into is the college boards, enrollment planning services, so SAS and e p s.
[00:21:07] Mary Beth Marks: there's some really good opportunities in there. To look at students from neighborhood clusters. So it's almost like you're buying a lookalike audience. based on student data that you know will attend your school, which is really cool.
[00:21:20] Mary Beth Marks: that's been around for a while, but I know they're making new. improvements to that too. So I'm looking forward to really digging into that one in terms of technology that we're using or not using, I feel very grateful at Pacific that we are able to,get in with some of the really good stuff that's going on out there, and be on that forefront of, new technologies that can assist us.
[00:21:41] Host: has there ever been a time that you've been at an institution that you have not had the resources that you needed, and what did that look like? What were some of those tough conversations that you had to have with administration that's like, Hey, if you want this to get done, then we need this, how did that go?
[00:22:01] Mary Beth Marks: I have been in places like that and first of all, I'll say that I think it made me, a much more resourceful and scrappier enrollment manager than if I had. All the bells and whistles set up for me so that I've really been able to use those to my advantage in terms of professional development and find ways to get things done without necessarily having the tools that everybody else had.
[00:22:25] Mary Beth Marks: but I do think that , those are tough conversations to have and one of your best allies to make is with the cfo, F. . anytime I talk to , anyone, even outside of higher ed, I'm like, you need to make friends with a CFO if you're in a position where you can, because that person can help you with your cause or tell you why and explain it to you and tell you what they need from you in order for you to get those, tools or whatever you need to successfully do your job.
[00:22:52] Mary Beth Marks: So I think, yeah, it is a little bit of a struggle, but on the flip side, it made me more, scrappy. Resourceful, we'll call it resourceful. an example was, we didn't have funds to get a full-blown texting platform,
[00:23:07] Mary Beth Marks: so we used Google Voice to text and I think we could only text 20 students at a time. So we had to load in names and Then like text, and then text, and then text. And we did end up getting, a platform to do mass texting with, and even at the time when we were texting with Google Voice, we were still one of the few universities at the time who were using text as a outreach method.
[00:23:28] Mary Beth Marks: So now it's pretty much part of anybody's strategy. But then we had to find the workaround. And the workaround was Google Voice. so yeah, we got creative.
[00:23:36] Mary Beth Marks: It wasn't very smart in terms of what you could extract from it data-wise, but it worked. It did work. We did get results from it, so that was helpful.
[00:23:46] Host: . What is something that your school or your team struggles with?
[00:23:49] Mary Beth Marks: , making sure that we have. The right message to the right audience at the right time. And it's not so much of a struggle as it is, remembering to constantly look at the funnel and look at numbers and see where we're at, and then stepping back and then asking ourselves, is this working successfully or not?
[00:24:07] Mary Beth Marks: And what can we do to make it work successfully? And. as part of that is also determining, what makes it successful. What does success look like? Is it successful because , the click-through rate is higher or is it successful because they actually filled out an application and we saw a bump in apps from this digital ad?
[00:24:26] Mary Beth Marks: and I don't think that's unique to us. that's something that I've experienced at. institutions too. You think you're doing everything that you could possibly do, and you're like, what more can I do to get this group in the door or to have this outcome? And sometimes there isn't anything.
[00:24:41] Mary Beth Marks: You've done it all and it's just not your time, or you just maybe didn't have the right audience at the time, but you don't know that right away. And it takes a little while of digging through data and looking at your class composition and who responded and who. didn't to get to that point. And because of the way that the enrollment cycle works, it's not real time feedback in your data.
[00:25:03] Mary Beth Marks: It's like feedback that you get after 12th class day when you've already done everything. And you're already in the next one. Right,there are some places in the pipeline that you can get some data feedback, but at the end of the day, , the big chunk of it is at the end when you've already done everything and it's hard to pivot.
[00:25:18] Host: what do you see for the future of higher ed marketing?
[00:25:22] Mary Beth Marks: it definitely is going to become even more, niche. So we have to really fine tune our messages. We have to not talk, but tell a story. we have to get those students, those prospective students and their families involved. We especially have to get into the families, the influencers right away, sooner rather than later.
[00:25:45] Mary Beth Marks: I would. love to start building parent affinity groups at the ninth grade or 10th grade level. I think that would be awesome if we started moving that way. And if we could work on that and just get that buy-in that early, I think it would influence our end results, and maybe make some of our enrollment goals.
[00:26:04] Mary Beth Marks: less stressful at times. So that's the big one, is shifting away from marketing directly to the student and involving parents even more earlier in the marketing process.
[00:26:16] Host: . what is an app or a marketing tool that you could not live?
[00:26:20] Mary Beth Marks: right now I have two, one, it's Asana and can. Asana because it keeps me and everybody else on track, in my team. And I have an awesome project manager who she'll be like, did you check this? And I said, did you ping me an asana? And then if I have it, that reminder, I will definitely look at it if I didn't have that.
[00:26:39] Mary Beth Marks: And I just relied on like my whiteboard behind me. I may or may not get to it at any time. Canva has been a really fun tool that this team here introduced to me. and I've, I mess around with it. I'm able to make, I learned how to make my own memes with it. They showed me how to make PowerPoints with it, with our branding guidelines.
[00:26:57] Mary Beth Marks: we can make video with it and all of that. So that's been a really cool tool to assist me, not. Here, like with making, some little, digital ads and those types of things internally, but across the board, when I communicate to other stakeholders in on campus, it's been very valuable.
[00:27:14] Host: Could go back five to 10 years and give yourself advice, what would it be?
[00:27:18] Mary Beth Marks: I would have told myself to make more time for my family and put in some very clear boundaries with work, than pushing so hard to prove myself in the field and wanting to get promoted so quickly.
[00:27:33] Mary Beth Marks: At the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered if I stayed the extra two hours, whatever. my youngest son took his first steps in my office and it probably should have been at home, not in my office on a weekend when I was like working on admission stuff.
[00:27:47] Mary Beth Marks: And I think what I would tell my younger version is that go home at five or whenever you wanna go home, your salary, you don't have to stay as long. , you don't have to work on the weekends. It's still there on Monday. And what I've realized in my time in higher ed is that it moves at a snail pace, for the most part.
[00:28:05] Mary Beth Marks: So whatever project I was working on during the week, it'll still be there on Monday. put in those boundaries when you're younger, not now when you're older. although I feel more secure in doing it, I think because I feel more confident and I know my, what my position is and I know my job and what's expected of me.
[00:28:22] Mary Beth Marks: and I also know my supervisor very well. and I don't care as much if I'm VP or executive director or director, that part doesn't matter to me, as much as it did when I was younger.
[00:28:33] Host: So for you it's more about prioritizing what's most important so you can pack it up and get home versus getting it all done.
[00:28:41] Mary Beth Marks: that extra thing on your to-do list it'll be there the next day and it's not as important as you'd think it is.
[00:28:46] Host: How can someone connect with you if they would like to do that?
[00:28:50] Mary Beth Marks: LinkedIn is actually the best place I love a good meme. I use a lot of memes when I post on LinkedIn. I think they're relatable.
[00:28:57] Host: Thank you so much for interviewing with me today. This was great.
[00:29:00] Mary Beth Marks: thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.
[00:29:04] Host: This is the Filling Seats podcast, hosted by StudentBridge, your one stop shop for easy and engaging enrollment solutions. If you're tired of snory-telling, and ready to start storytelling your way to better visits and better enrollment, visit studentbridge.com.
[00:29:22] Host: To connect with this episode's guest, check out the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a rating and review and don't forget to subscribe. For more information about the podcast or to let us know, you'd like to be a guest visit studentbridge.com/podcast. Thanks for listening!