Website homepages, program pages, and inquiry outreach with an experienced consultant

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Host: You're listening to filling seats, the state of enrollment, marketing, and higher ed. Hosted by StudentBridge. In this podcast. You'll learn, what's working to grow shape and sustain enrollment. At colleges and universities directly for marketers thought leaders and ed tech innovators, because anyone can design a brochure, but not anyone can fill seats.

[00:00:30] Host: Welcome to episode 11 of filling seats. In this episode, you'll hear from Bob Johnson, who has been a consultant in higher ed since 2006, helping schools develop strong marketing communication strategies. You'll hear him talk about the top mistakes colleges and universities make on their website homepage.

[00:00:49] Host: Critical information that could be missing from your school's academic program pages. And what's more important for your enrollment marketing strategy than high price technology. Let's meet Bob.

[00:01:00] Bob Johnson: I got a PhD in political science and thought I was going to be a professor for the rest of my life. And after about five years of that, I decided I couldn't stand writing papers anymore. And discussing with students while they got a C instead of an a, and I had an opportunity to become an associate academic Dean.

[00:01:17] Bob Johnson: And I took it. so I went from being an associate professor to an associate academic Dean. And a year after that, the president of the college, I was at walked down the hallway and said, you're in charge of admissions now. And that was a surprise to me. I hadn't been in charge of admissions before. And that's how I got into the whole enrollment side of things that began to develop after that.

[00:01:40] Bob Johnson: And, , got into marketing from a direct marketing perspective, more than a brand marketing perspective,so I've always been more interested in how you build lists groups to contact, whether you're doing that in the old version of doing it primarily in the mail or whether you're doing it today, doing it on social media and things of that sort.

[00:02:00] Bob Johnson: And I became a vice president for marketing in the mid 1980s. And I have stayed in that marketing and enrollment element ever since. So I worked as a professor. I've worked as a minister in college and universities. I worked with an agency for six years, and then after that, I became an independent consultant in 2006, which is what I've been ever since.

[00:02:22] Bob Johnson: And each of those things was valuable to where I am today.

[00:02:26] Host: Tell me a little bit about, Bob Johnson consulting. And it is you do. and who you've primarily worked with.

[00:02:32] I've worked with just about every kind of college and university you could imagine from, Iowa state to Sienna Heights, university, I mean,big ones and little ones, public and private. I've always thought that the marketing interest of a school is,determined more by the people at the school that the size of the school or the type of the school.

[00:02:52] worked with a couple of for-profits, but mostly the not-for-profit sector, probably about 80 different schools. Since 2006, when I became independent and obviously more schools than that when I was working with the agency. I chaired the AMA marketing symposium for about 10 years, and that's what motivated me to start the newsletter that I've been doing since the mid nineties. It was a way of promote. The marketing symposium and hoping that more people would come and attend it. And that has grown substantially over the years, but that was the motivation for doing what I'm primarily interested in.

[00:03:26] Bob Johnson: Now I'm not seeking new clients anymore. I'm working with older clients from time to time, and I still write a monthly newsletter and I do. Oh, a link of the week selection. Most of my emphasis right now is with, online marketing communications and with a particular emphasis on websites as still the most important in the first place that most potential.

[00:03:50] Bob Johnson: We'll come into contact with a college or a university. So in my work, I tend to focus on what kind of first impression are you making on a potential student? how can you make it stronger? if you don't make a good first impression, , for most schools you'll have to work like hell to.

[00:04:06] to gain back, a good impression after that most schools on Harvard, most schools have to work really hard to get people's interest into.

[00:04:15] Host: What are the top infractions that you see on an EDU website?

[00:04:22] Bob Johnson: We don't have time for that EDU websites. and there are exceptions to this. So I'm going to make a general statement and I wouldn't love every single website into that, but a major problem that I see is that people are reluctant to focus on homepage priority to the top tasks that potential students want to do.

[00:04:44] Bob Johnson: When they come to a website, there's still a very great tendency to want to preach to the audience rather than facilitate the audience coming to your web. and finding what they want to do as easily as possible. and probably the biggest concrete example of that still today is a tremendous reluctance to, talk early on in the recruitment cycle, including first impression on the website about cost and affordability and financial aid packages and things like that.

[00:05:14] that is a first or second priority. Task for people to accomplish when they come to a higher ed website, whether they're 35 years old or 18 years old or whatever, in all the research we've done about what potential students most want to find on our website. One of the top three tasks is always affordability and cost.

[00:05:36] Bob Johnson: And what does it cost to me and colleges and universities just in general, do an absolutely miserable job of making it easy to get that information and boil it down to what is the cost to me. If I go to your school, number one, problem with higher education websites, I would say.

[00:05:55] so when you said, how. Generally institutions tend to preach to students instead of facilitating what they want to do. Do you mean by that, that a lot of institutional homepages just have like news articles and marketing slogans and don't really have the calls to action of apply, visit, learn more.

[00:06:19] it's interesting. You mentioned appli, there's a fair number of higher education websites that throw the apply link to people, it's there and highly visible, even though when somebody first comes to your website, they're probably not ready to apply yet. I find, for instance, the inquiry button, there's better names for it, but let's call it the inquiry button.

[00:06:42] Bob Johnson: The request information button is often more difficult to find than the application. And I think that it needs to be an understanding that when the person comes to your website for the first time, in some cases they're ready to apply depending on, their uncle or their teacher or somebody at work.

[00:06:59] Bob Johnson: But in most cases, they're going to several websites at the same time and they're not ready to apply yet. You have to convince them to apply. So there's nothing wrong with putting an application link on the homepage. But , you should have an inquiry link there as well. And it's interesting that you mentioned news stories.

[00:07:17] working with Jerry McGovern in Ireland we've done a lot of surveys of potential students and what's a top task. And what isn't a top task news stories is invariably at the end of the list. it's a tiny task. potential students. so I tell people in my work, you can have it on the homepage because usually there's a lot of internal pressure to put it on the homepage, but put it down at the bottom of the page.

[00:07:45] people will be happy with that and don't make it the first thing or the second thing that potential students are going to see, because it's just blocking them from getting where they want to get to. web visitors are very impatient visitors they want to get to where they want to be as quickly as possible, and then accomplish the task as quickly as possible.

[00:08:04] Bob Johnson: And if they can't do that, they'll leave. This is for most,colleges and universities that don't have the kind of brand reputation that people say, I'll climb over Bob wire or crawl through mud to get admitted to this school. there Haim very many schools like that in the. And, most people have to be more conscious of how they can help potential.

[00:08:24] Bob Johnson: Students get to be where they want to be as quickly as they can.

[00:08:28] Something that I was thinking about recently is that it's really common. when you're on an e-commerce site and the first time you visit, you get a little pop up or there's something at the bottom that says, put in your email and you'll get 10% off your first purchase. you're getting some value, but then with higher ed, it's like, gimme your email to give me your email. , why do you think institutions haven't embraced the lead magnet, the value, the incentive. It's just please give me your email and fill out this very long form where I ask you 19 questions.

[00:09:01] Bob Johnson: Two things people want to do when they come to your website at the beginning, they want to learn about particular academic programs that interest them. And they want to learn about that cost question. And, you don't need a pop-up to help them do that. You need a very visible, prominent, passageway from the homepage to where you get to that.

[00:09:21] Bob Johnson: And people should really be looking at the new Google search results now. I just searched for Adrian college here in Michigan. This would work with almost any of them. the first things across the top of a search for a particular school, one of the things is cost.

[00:09:36] Bob Johnson: And another one as outcomes. I would encourage everybody who's listening to this and is engaged in enrollment marketing to,Click on costs and see where that takes people on your website, click on outcomes and see what you've got available to them. And it had best be what people want to see.

[00:09:56] Bob Johnson: Google has up the stakes in not dealing with cost and outcomes. Very well. outcomes are a little more important to older students and graduate students, but they're also important to younger students and programs is right up there as well. I would let Google be your guide and understanding that what Google has done is they've given people more options to avoid your homepage, not start at your homepage.

[00:10:22] Bob Johnson: Most people probably still will, but you need to pay attention to these other places where people may start and check your analytics to see not just where they're going from the homepage, but where are they starting on the. And a significant percentage, probably not half yet, but a significant percentage will be starting someplace other than the homepage.

[00:10:45] google has been rolling this out since the early, probably February. I don't know if it's applied to every college yet, but it's almost every college and university now. that's what you'll see across the top of the page.

[00:10:58] Bob Johnson: And Google will take you someplace the cost page. For instance, when you click on that will give you the average cost after financial aid and a whole bunch of other information that people are getting based on their family income level, I would just encourage every enrollment marketer to pay attention to this and to see what's being put up there and to possibly adjust your website approach.

[00:11:21] Host: You mentioned. That the number one thing that students want to see is information about academic programs. And what I see on a ton of university websites is that information then links to the catalog, which is super technical. And it lists, you must have a B in calculus in order to get to the second semester of this curriculum.

[00:11:47] Host: And these are all the classes you need to take. And, I know that's not what they should be linking to what information should institutions have about academic programs for perspective?

[00:11:59] and this is one area I would encourage people to, To visit my link of the week collection on my website and type in something like academic programs in the search and come up and you'll find links to colleges and universities that I think have done a pretty good job with that, as opposed to linking people to their college catalog, which is absolutely a horrible thing to do.

[00:12:20] I think first of all, a lot of those sites, even when they don't go to the catalog, a lot of them start out with. Why study political science or, why study name of major, and they give a generic, summary about the major, that could apply to , any similar program at another school in the country, what they should be doing starting right from the beginning.

[00:12:42] Bob Johnson: Y study name of major at this particular school. And they should be immediately starting to put forth, what they think is a particular highlight of their particular program, whether it's business or nursing or healthcare or , whatever it happens to be. it's good to, and this is where there's maybe some difference between.

[00:13:02] Bob Johnson: No master's students and freshmen students, but there should be,some information on the site that lets people get and look at the academic courses that are offered. I think, a profile of the students in the program is important, and I think links to the faculty and the program is important,to have that kind of information there. From the academic program page, ideally you will have what very few schools do. You will have outcomes information based on the particular major.

[00:13:33] Bob Johnson: Most colleges and universities have a generic statement that says 93% of our students are employed within six months after graduating. Right. It's just nice. I don't think there's a school in the country that doesn't say that and point to something over 90%, but what's very rare, is to have schools link to that information about each major at the school.

[00:13:56] Bob Johnson: And if people want to see that's possible, Georgia tech does that very well. American university does that very well. Worcester Polytechnic. It does it fairly well, but there's a still in a PDF and PDF should be eradicated but American university and Georgia tech do a really good job.

[00:14:16] Bob Johnson: Of letting people search for outcomes by the individual programs they offer. So you can go to Georgia tech website and you can find where the bachelor's students go, where the master's students go. where are they employed? What are they earning? what's life like after they invest in my particular school.

[00:14:34] Bob Johnson: And I think that's fantastic marketing. much more important to develop time and energy into building that kind of site because most schools think they can't do it. Then it would be for most schools to invest in a new brand campaign or something like. And that's my marketing opinion, because that's what students want to know.

[00:14:53] if I'm interested in business, I don't care what happens to your nursing students. And if I'm interested in nursing, I don't care what happens to your business students. So I really like to see the state of higher education marketing, advance significantly. If more colleges and universities would take the time to build that in, it can be.

[00:15:13] Bob Johnson: People just think it's a lot of work and they don't want to do it. And that's a marketing mistake.

[00:15:18] Host: . What are some marketing technologies that you see making the biggest impact for enrollment teams?

[00:15:24] Bob Johnson: I think the, content management systems give people a lot of potential advantage in the way they contact and interact with students. I don't see very many schools making the best possible use of them. All. Some do,So I'm not really, I'm not enamored of the new technology. If it, if chasing new technology, for instance, keeps people from building, outcomes, results by individual programs at their school.

[00:15:51] creating outcomes like American university and Georgia tech have done. Doesn't require fancy new technology. It requires research and basic fundamental work to create that content for websites. and then you can direct potential students to that, website.

[00:16:11] Bob Johnson: You can do that through email. you can do that for texting and texting is a technology. Tremendously effective over the last few years for schools that know how to use it properly. It doesn't replace email, but it's an important addition to email and the communication system.

[00:16:27] again, if you know how to use it and you react personally to what people are looking to do. The further they get into the cycle, that's where texting, begins to be really important to people. and again, you're just not pushing out the,what's one of my favorite worthless claims on higher education websites.

[00:16:47] Bob Johnson: We're committed to academic. And we're committed to academic excellence and you never see an Ivy league school or a flagship university putting that up on their website, but you see a lot of other schools claiming it as if it's a great significance to people.

[00:17:04] Bob Johnson: When in fact it's really not,

[00:17:06] Bob Johnson: The fact is that most colleges and universities are pretty good places to get an education.

[00:17:13] and people shouldn't feel so embarrassed about where they don't rank in us news and world report.

[00:17:17] Bob Johnson: Everybody, can't be a top 50 school. That's just the possible. And the fact is most people are not looking for a top 50.

[00:17:25] Host: How do you see personalization being done? Well,

[00:17:29] Bob Johnson: I haven't yet encountered an example of that. I would call being really done well. I still do a fair amount of secret shopping and become inquiries at school. And when you do that, most of those schools will ask you what academic program you're interested in.

[00:17:45] Host: Never send you information

[00:17:47] Bob Johnson: And then never send you information about that early in the process of. and it can be done. I'm not going to remember the exact school, but this was a project I did a couple of years ago, a branch university in the university of Wisconsin system. So it was a regional university.

[00:18:07] Bob Johnson: I inquired as a pre-med student and within the first five emails. I got back an email from the chair of the biology department, telling me about how many pre-med students were majoring in biology and a couple of emails later. This is all within the first six weeks. I got an email from the chair of the pre-med committee at that regional university in Wisconsin that I can guarantee you did not have, uh,bill gazillion dollars to spend on.

[00:18:39] Bob Johnson: Email communications and things of that sort

[00:18:41] Bob Johnson: again, it's possible to do it, but very few places do. And that's another major marketing mistake until I see that happening more often, I'm not going to pay attention to people that talk about personalizing websites.

[00:18:56] it really does go back to it's about the content and it's about the work. It's not about the advanced technical systems.

[00:19:05]

[00:19:05] yes. the technical systems are there if you know how to employ them, butknow, as long as I've been in this business, , at least since the late 1980s, I've seen people often acquiring technological capability that they, never take the time to exploit properly and employ to the point where, they can do that.

[00:19:26] Bob Johnson: I went to a small conference, once they had me come in and do a presentation on doing students search in the early nineties. And my presentation was about how I did 22 different students searches, based on individual academic programs that a student registering for the act, said they were interested in and one person walked out of that session and went up to the person, running the conference and said, you've got a lunatic in there.

[00:19:52] Bob Johnson: How can possibly do that? Three or four years later? bill Royal when he started Royal and company to work with colleges and universities came to an AMA marketing symposium and they did a session on how they were sending individual letters to people based on the individual programs they were interested in and, absolutely the right way to do it.

[00:20:16] Bob Johnson: Now is that personalization? It's better than the generic stuff that most people get that never mentioned the academic program that people are interested in. And yet , when you bought a search name, whether it was college board, or act, you always got that piece of information, it was always possible.

[00:20:36] Bob Johnson: And if I could customize that in the late eighties, in the early nineties, other people can be doing it today. And some people are, by the way, I would say,I don't know how many people do it today, but many do not do it today.

[00:20:49] Host: What are some things that you think enrollment teams could do? Some changes they could make that would have the biggest impact

[00:20:57] Bob Johnson: When you get to the point where you're coming into contact with individual students, in other words, the people who are most likely to enroll at your school, however you determine who they are.

[00:21:08] Bob Johnson: Most of us know that 80%, 75% of your inquiry pool typically is. And the trick is to identify the other 25% so that admissions recruiters can begin to concentrate on the early interest. People who are most likely to actually convert to applicants and to enroll students. I don't know if people even use this term anymore, but I found, that predictive modeling, which I have used as a technology.

[00:21:39] when I was last working at a college, can be very helpful to do that. predictive modeling works. It does sort out from a big inquiry pool, the people who are most likely to follow through with your school and the ones who are not. So I wouldn't call that new technology. I'd call that old technology administered in new ways today, but it's something that I think people should be trying to screen.

[00:22:04] Bob Johnson: Their initial inquiry pool down to smaller numbers that people can begin to deal with more individually than they can. Now. I still get that question sometimes while I've got so many inquiries, what can I do with them? I can't possibly deal with all of them. What predictive modeling lets you rank the ones.

[00:22:24] Bob Johnson: And if you can't contact everybody at the same time, in the same way, you start with the top and work your way towards the bottom and go as far as you can. Nobody can do it all. and if you need to divide it up a little more focus on the programs at your school that are most in need of new students, I once had someone call me a university I was working at and say, Bob, we've got so many inquiries about the physician assistant program that we simply can't handle them all. What do you recommend? We do? And my response was raised the costs, which didn't work, or they didn't like that idea at all, but that was a rare program.

[00:23:05] Bob Johnson: That program didn't need recruitment assistant. That program had so many, or they had four successful applicants for every position they could, that they could fill. Now that's rare. but again, try to look at the programs overall and identify which ones are most in need of my assistance, my being the admissions office, the admissions recruiters, and where can I help make a difference?

[00:23:33] Bob Johnson: And that's one way you can help make it.

[00:23:36] Bob Johnson: I hope to assume most admissions offices have a recruitment territory system of some sort, whether it's based on geography or some other criteria.

[00:23:47] Bob Johnson: Where people are not just responsible for how many applications come in the door, but for how many of them actually enroll. And if that's the case, that's incentive for every enrollment recruiter to understand the individual applicants they have in their file as best they can. And communicate with them about those factors that are going to play out in whether or not they move towards a final enrollment,You don't have to have a quota, but every enrollment recruiter should know how many students are expected to enroll. From their particular cluster of people that are working with, that's a powerful incentive, for people to pay attention to what motivates the applicants in their pool.

[00:24:38] Bob Johnson: And I say that from experience,that kind of system is prevalent at lots and lots of colleges and universities, but where it's not. I would certainly say that's an area where you can, where you can make a difference. The other thing I would caution people against doing is,don't go exploring in uncharted waters for new students, unless you're absolutely certain you're getting every possible students you can get from , your primary recruitment area.

[00:25:06] Just a couple of years ago, I had someone sent me every piece of literature that their son got after he signed up and took the SATs. and this person was in Rochester, new. was interested in engineering, only one school of the many, the contacted this person based on the level of interest he'd said when he took the test was case Western reserve university, which sent him a marvelous series of postcards each one on an individual engineering program at case Western reserve unit.

[00:25:42] Bob Johnson: It was the only school there must have been, a couple of hundred schools that were contacting this person. It was the only school that paid any attention to what he said. On the other hand, the one other one that sticks out in my mind.

[00:25:58] Bob Johnson: And he was getting, contacts from a Christian college in Oklahoma. that had no reason to think he would ever be interested in that most students in Rochester, New York are never going to go to school in Oklahoma. Cultivate, the groups you're going to contact much more closely before you begin the current.

[00:26:17] Bob Johnson: And try for a better inquiry pool rather than a bigger inquiry pool. And the further afield you go from your primary recruitment area, the more important that becomes, there's nothing wrong with prospecting , new areas. But when you do it, you can't be casting a wide net and trying to pull up everything that's swimming in the ocean in that new area, because.

[00:26:41] Bob Johnson: You'll probably get the inquiries from it, but they won't convert to anything. And there has to be much more attention to, tracking students from the time of initial inquiry, by the source of the inquiry until they enroll. And everybody today has the capability to do that. Just about if you have any kind of content management system at all, you have the capability of tracking students from source of inquiry.

[00:27:07] Host: To final enrollment. I know that many schools are doing that, but I also know that some are not,. What are some things that you see happening over the next few years

[00:27:16] number one, it's going to get viciously competitive in certain parts of the country, for better, or for worse, the local area population is shrinking. I think we will start to see more attention to conversion because the people that at some agencies that I see working now that are. Pushing or recommending new areas that people weren't paying attention to before.

[00:27:41] Bob Johnson: And I see them at least promoting more attention to conversion, then mass acquisition of inquiries. And I think we're going to see more of. As time goes on. I think more people will realize that this really isn't a funnel in the classic sense , I hate the word funnel because funnel assumes that the more you put in on the top, the more you'll get out of the bottom.

[00:28:08] that's the sort of the nature of a funnel. And of course the reality is that if you put too much in, at the top all at once, nothing comes out the bottom, it just doesn't happen. So I prefer to think of it as a second. And you don't need a massive number of inquiries upfront if you're focusing on conversion or if you're losing weak inquiries in the early two thousands.

[00:28:32] Bob Johnson: When I was at an agency, I had a client, good client call me up and she said, Bob, you got to help me understand what's going on. My inquiries are down in my applications. It's a very traditional person that didn't seem to make sense. And I said,where are your inquiries down?

[00:28:49] and well, say my search inquiries are down, but your applications. So I said, it's a pretty good chance to hear that given the way you were doing search, which she was beginning to pull back. it didn't make any difference that the search inquiries were down because the search inquiries weren't the ones that were converting at a very high level.

[00:29:06] it was the self-created ones, the single, and this is still true today. students, when they registered to take an sat exam or an act. They get to identify colleges okay. 10 years ago, I heard a person at the act enrollment planners conference, say with shock in his voice, that they'd done the research from their perspective and 50% of the schools. Took act inquiries and stuck them in there.

[00:29:37] Bob Johnson: Complete major, big inquiry pool and gave them no special attention. And I was shocked to hear that still. maybe not shocked. Appalled would be a better word to use. I would hope today there is not a college or a university recruiting students from high school. Who is not making act and sat students the priority recruitment group.

[00:30:04] Bob Johnson: Now maybe you'll get some that'll fall so far out of your parameters of who you want to recruit. That's okay. Put them aside, but you'll get a lot that deserve immediate context. Uh, text a phone call. they need some kind of immediate contact. Don't lose them for heaven sake in your total inquiry pool, because if you are, it's like mining for gold and getting a piece of gold out of the river and throwing it back in with all the other stones that came out of the river. It's really bad. So I hope that's changed.

[00:30:38] that was act telling people that you're doing this,essentially the wrong way. And once that happens, then I think then you begin to convert more of those people. To get them to enroll and that's, I think going to be the single biggest difference, more attention to conversion, and less attention to, to pulling up inquiries.

[00:30:58] Bob Johnson: And that's what I meant by check the primary recruitment area. First, are you doing everything to maximize conversion within your primary recruitment area to separate yourself? Schools in Oklahoma, if your school is located in, Syracuse, put the Oklahoma ones aside for goodness sakes and concentrate on the ones from New York, new England, Ohio, that kind of thing.

[00:31:22] Host: if you're not converting well on the home front, then you're not going to convert well at all. You have no tried and true tactics to use in a new market.

[00:31:33] Bob Johnson: Exactly.

[00:31:34] Bob Johnson: .

[00:31:34] Bob Johnson: And I see there's this fellow on Twitter all the time. Coach tears, he goes around doing,Recruitment sessions for admissions offices all over the country. , and so I read about what he's writing about and it tells me two things. One there's still a lot of work to be done.

[00:31:50] he gets hired by a lot of places to base. Basically, if I had to summarize his message in one sentence,it's get to know the individual people you're working. Meaning the individual potential students that you're working with. And, he's teaching them how to use the technology they have.

[00:32:08] Bob Johnson: But the technology is , in a sense, the least important part of it,to motivate and move the people. And you've got to ask questions of the people you're working with and find out. what's of most interest to them now I'm really talking about now is the application stage?

[00:32:22] Bob Johnson: getting the most you can out of your applicant pool, not letting anybody drift away, but as, a wise person, at Sienna college in Albany, said a little while ago, I used it in my newsletter as a significant Twitter quote.

[00:32:34] Bob Johnson: she basically said conversion never stops. It starts from the first moment you start recruiting students and it never stops until somebody finally enrolls. It's just, it's not just what you do after you have an application. It's not what you do after you admit a student.

[00:32:50] you have to work with them all the way through the process. From the beginning to the end, the funnel, isn't going to do it by itself.

[00:32:58] Host: How can anyone get in touch with you or subscribe to your newsletter?

[00:33:03] Bob Johnson: I would just go to Bob Johnson, consulting.com the newsletter comes out once a month. And I do the link of the weeks, most weeks in between to highlight particular college and university sites that I thought I think are doing a particularly good job.

[00:33:18] Bob Johnson: And you can sign up, with just your email. It'll take you on a five seconds if you want to do that.

[00:33:23] Host: That's awesome. thank you so much for interviewing with us today.

[00:33:27] Bob Johnson: And thank you for having me visit with you. just keep focusing on incremental improvement. That's what I would encourage you. There's so many ways to improve incrementally.

[00:33:35]

[00:33:38] Host: thank you for listening to the filling seats podcast, hosted by student bridge. If you'd like to connect with this episode's guest. Check out the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review and don't forget to subscribe. For more information about the podcast or to let us know, you'd like to be a guest.

[00:33:58] Host: Visit student bridge.com/podcast. Thanks for listening